Subject: Re: [vserver] Roadmap and Future ...
From: "Michael S. Zick" <mszick@morethan.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 08:17:17 -0600

On Tue March 3 2009, randall wrote:
> Dallas Kashuba wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 28, 2009, at 1:09 AM, Herbert Poetzl wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:35:22PM +0000, Ed W wrote:
> >>> Dallas Kashuba wrote:
> >>>> Assuming, an updated website is deemed worth the time and effort (I'm
> >>>> not convinced it is, but it couldn't hurt)...
> >>>
> >>> Everyone seems to be trying to redevelop what site we have already - I
> >>> think I was misunderstood on this point.  Please lets keep all our
> >>> current docs, but add a fancy front end for all the "what is vserver 
> >>> all
> >>> about" type content..
> >>>
> >>>> I agree that wordpress might be a good choice for the basic website.
> >>>> We are using it for the website of our own open-source project, using
> >>>> an 'off the shelf' theme with some minor modifications:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://ceph.newdream.net/
> >>
> >> please don't get me wrong, the input is very appreciated,
> >> but I don not see that a great difference between this
> >> site/page and http://linux-vserver.org, except for the
> >> fact that the page is way to long ...
> >>
> >> I see a simple (granted nicely colored) icon, the sidebar
> >> with a lot of (partially unsorted) links and a content
> >> area, here containing postings (for us it contains the
> >> versions, which might not be the best idea, I agree)
> >
> >
> > I'll just say up front I don't have any issues with the aesthetic look 
> > of the current website. Somebody mentioned wordpress and I offered up 
> > the ceph page as an example of another open source project with a 
> > working wordpress site with a theme, that simply links to a mediawiki 
> > install.  A theme with wordpress gives you an instant 'design' without 
> > much or any work.
> >
> > The actual length of the page is entirely based on whether or not you 
> > default to showing the 'blog' portion of the site or another page, and 
> > of course you can choose how many posts to show on the page at once 
> > and you can decide how much of each post is shown.  All that said, 
> > it's pretty much the 'blog way' to show a lot of content on each page 
> > because bandwidth is now cheap and time spent clicking links is not.  
> > It used to bug me but I've either become complacent or I've come over 
> > to agree... I'm not sure which.
> >
> >
> >>>> We are just linking out to the mediawiki wiki rather than making any
> >>>> attempt to incorporate it into wordpress.
> >>
> >>> Cool - do you have the ability to offer vserver something similar for
> >>> the front site?
> >>
> >> so, what am I missing here?
> >> this is curiosity not sarcasm, really :)
> >>
> >> TIA,
> >> Herbert
> >
> >
> > One key aspect of having a 'news' or 'blog' section front and center 
> > is it gives the immediate impression that the project is making 
> > regular progress.  I think that's a good thing, in general.
> >
> > That can be done entirely within the existing mediawiki install, 
> > though.  I feel like all of this energy people are building up would 
> > be best put towards just updating and organizing the existing wiki, 
> > continuing the importing of the old wiki, and other things of that 
> > nature.
> >
> >
> > You may not be really missing anything.  I don't personally think the 
> > linux-vserver.org site needs to change the software its using 
> > (mediawiki is quite nice, in my opinion) or its visual look.  I do 
> > think the content could be organized better, but I'm also not sure 
> > that in of itself would really do anything much to solve the financial 
> > situation you started this thread with.  I guess the theory is a more 
> > modern website would attract more users, which would attract more 
> > developers, which would help you keep the project moving forward.
> >
> > All that said, I think it's possible that a different website engine 
> > would perhaps provide a more flexible platform and potentially allow 
> > more people to keep the site updated and 'fresh' feeling.
> >
> >     Dallas
> >
> there is very little wrong with the wiki, problem is google.... let me 
> explain.
> 
> personally i studied economics and law and work for a company that 
> trades waste paper and plastics to China,  computer stuff is just a 
> hobby that skyrocketed 5 years ago after being computer shy all my life 
> (except for those old games on the commodore 64).
> i do not consider myself an expert but I'm happy to be proficient now as 
> a user being able to setup anything i want or would ever need, basically 
> learning everything i know at the "google university"
> now.... VServer is one of the tools that stuck with me as a standard 
> tool but it took me a long long way to find it, i have tried ALL the 
> other ones first before giving VServer a shot, want to know why VServer 
> was my last desperate attempt to see if it was the solution for me?
> 
> just pretend not to know VServer and try googling for it, personally i 
> use debian and what does google give me
> 
> when i search, debian vserver
> except for one current link, the first page is filled with debian sarge 
> and kernel 2.4
> 
> when searching for, vserver
>  we get some retro looking pages from the nineties, nothing wrong since 
> the info is still valid but it does not look actively supported that way.
> 
> funnily enough searching, vserver lenny , vserver hylafax , vserver 
> zimbra , vserver avantfax
> i even see my personal pages on the first page, go figure.
> 
> To have a new front-site is not going to perform magic on its own, but 
> it might do some good.
> Making the activity on the mailing list visible to the outside world 
> would do some good.
> Also updating the distro specific doc's on the wiki should be a 
> priority, lets take ubuntu as an example.
> 
> if you look at this page (its one of the better ones) its a very good 
> start but still looks shabby and experimental.
> http://linux-vserver.org/Installation_on_Ubuntu
> 
> if you would update it to show repeated detailed instructions for each 
> release like on this page for example, it would boost a lot more 
> confidence that the road is already paved and its guaranteed to work for 
> you.
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Medibuntu#Adding%20the%20Repositories
> 
> the ubuntu wiki on VServer is outdated, is edgy still supported? don't 
> think so.
> http://linux-vserver.org/Installation_on_Ubuntu
> 
> 
> If the goal is to expand the user base, then you have to spoon feed the 
> documentation for new users.
> I think VServer is lacking there in that aspect, but its a bug that can 
> be fixed by the non-developers, personally as a free-loading user 
> without any programming experience i would be glad to donate a little 
> time on that, pretty sure that i will not be the only one, maybe 
> everyone could drop a mail to the documentation folks for their specific 
> distro to update the documentation or do it yourself, not sure how many 
> people actually are on this mailing list so maybe even requesting this 
> on a distro forum would spur some enthusiasm.
> 

All good sounding points to me.

> http://linux-vserver.org/Teams_and_Projects
> maybe we could have some volunteers to form a publicity team.


Once upon a time, there was (informally) such a group - -
The original developers, and some of the still current ones;
traveled to shows and wrote for publication on the concept 
of Linux-VServer.

But your suggestion sounds to me to be different than that
type of PR.  More one of publicity than public relations.
(Perhaps a difference without any distinction.)

> Basic tasks as a start could be
> to coordinate the VServer wiki pages about the distro WITH the distro 
> wiki pages about VServer.
> submitting VServer articles on howtoforge.com etc.. etc....
> 

That would be a nice task for your proposed group to take on.
I found myself relying more on the Gentoo pages about VServer than 
on the VServer-Wiki itself.

The distribution maintained wiki/documentation pages have to also
be considered one of the "front doors" into learning of/about
Linux-VServer - - -

A user commonly thinks of themselves as a "Debian user" or a
"Gentoo user" (or a "Whatever user) and first consults the 
wiki/documentation of their distribution.

So it makes a lot of sense that we consider the mention of Linux-VServer
by each distribution as "alternative project front pages" - -
They should be maintained as if they where as important as our own
home page. (I think they are as important.)

> any one interested?

Another task for the suggested PR group would be to submit a once a 
month (or once a week) short article to the various Linux e-zines
and Linux topic sites.

I will continue working on my prototype example - if only to give
focus to the discusion - - -
Even as a bad example, it makes it easier to compare what "might be"
with what the community feels "should be".

Combine that with discusion of "What is, but should change" and we
have both a direction and a focus.  Even if that is "not like that".

Mike
>