Subject: Re: [vserver] Roadmap and Future ...
From: "John A. Sullivan III" <jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:07:06 -0500

On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 20:07 +0000, Ed W wrote:
> Herbert Poetzl wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Please think about what you can "sell" me that I can put down on
> > > my books and capitalise in some way as "goodwill" or "research" or
> > > whatever. 
> > >     
> > 
> > well, a service contract for, let's say 50 EUR per
> > month would fit your case perfectly fine, and as
> > Linux-VServer user, the books are fine too, if you
> > 'buy' the 'guarantee' that if something goes wrong,
> > one of the specialists will be available to look
> > into it
> >   
> 
> If you can come up with some defined levels from 50EU/month then I
> think you are in good shape.  Some may contribute much more in excess
> of that, but I was concerned that your starting point was much higher
> and I think this is hard for many folks to hit.  
> 
> Dunno though - I guess have a look at the price of Suse/Redhat, etc
> support contracts and work from there?
> 
> 
> > > Also I think this is a good time for vserver to come out and 
> > > start to look like a really professional project. 
> > >     
> > 
> > well, given that I can spend some more time on
> > Linux-VServer in general, that probably can be
> > arranged, although I would like to see folks which
> > are doing that for a living to join in instead of
> > the kernel developer(s) designing web pages :)
> >   
> 
> I agree - but I do think this is a really key think to work on if you
> are going to get this thing to snowball.  The website really does
> communicate your project and presence these days.  Sure you had me
> hooked on the feature list, but not everyone buys on features
> 
> Remember you are effectively "competing" for users attention now and
> trying to attract traffic to your site. I think this starts with a
> pretty front page on the website
> 
> However, Mythtv and other projects I have followed that have
> "smartened up" have done this through help from the community.  I
> think you need to promote a "we need a new website" drive and see if
> someone on the list can't help..?  (Any offers?!)
> 
> 
> > > * Documentation path for the newer users to get started.  
> > >   Which is to say there are some REALLY great docs on the wiki, 
> > >   but they aren't always joined together in a nice path to 
> > >   lead the user down the getting started  process.  
> > >   Again, this hopefully is a volunteer project?
> > >     
> > 
> > of course, volunteers to clean up the wiki(s) are
> > always welcome
> >   
> 
> I think you are missing the point that as the project leader you
> should consider trying to become a little more active in directing the
> community and getting this done?  I don't mean that you have to write
> all this stuff, but I do believe that you can "advertise" for people
> to work on stuff and try to direct the efforts of those who do
> contribute.
> 
> Sure people mainly contribute by scratching their itch, but if you can
> give people a few good ideas or give them a bunch of guidance on what
> needs doing then sometimes it helps get things done?
> 
> > > - List of sub projects on the go and their progress. 
> > >   (Some ability to vote on their priority would be nice also)
> > >     
> > 
> > if somebody sets something up to do that, I'll
> > gladly fill it with information
> >   
> 
> I meant that it's something that *you* maintain as you work on stuff
> 
> eg you could simply use the summary page on the wiki.  Link this into
> a page for each feature and people can use the talk pages or mailing
> list to discuss further.  I think there are some plugins for media
> wiki to do the usual %complete kind of graphs, etc?
> 
> 
> 
> > I always hear how much Linux-VServer would benefit
> > from a public git/svn/hg repository, but the fact
> > that we have such repositories and nobody wants to
> > actually maintain them is a good indication that
> > something is wrong with that thought
> >   
> 
> Actually I really think this is a chicken and egg situation.  If you
> don't have one then people have a barrier to entry and that in itself
> stops people using it...
> 
> I believe there are some git servers that someon setup, but consider
> that *I* don't even know how to find your "Experimental patches"
> directory without searching back through this mailing list every time
> and you can see what the benchmark is for someone who *does* actually
> care!  If I have to search the mailing list every time just to find
> this git repo then I'm going to assume that no one cares about it and
> not use that either...
> 
> I really don't know if git is the right answer because I haven't
> worked on a project which is basically a bunch of changes against
> another project, but making it simple to contribute is the main goal.
> My problem with patches is that it's not so easy to see what changes
> between each patch?
> 
> Also, I have no idea how to get started with vserver code.  However,
> when the git link was posted some weeks back I did spend some time
> clicking around through the code because it was suddenly quite
> possible to click around and get an idea on how the patches modify the
> code, ie the 20,000 feet view.  I found it very helpful actually.
> 
> Also on any new project I grab I tend to now browse the commits on
> interesting files - I personally find that the individual changes help
> figure out how the code works
> 
> 
> Seriously though - this is not about intellectual masterbation of
> having a git repo - pick something which works!  However, I think that
> the number of people saying that you need something highlights that
> people currently don't "get" the the current process.  Please "do"
> something even if it's only to add further documentation on why
> patches are the bees knees...
> 
> Since nearly everyone else in kernel world now uses git I do think it
> might be worth evaluating the cost of moving your process and whether
> it doesn't gain anything if at least stopping people winging?
> 
> 
> > the problem is, mainline is not interested ...
> > we did a major code cleanup, which made some code
> > parts less readable for the developers, to completely
> > comply with mainline coding style about two years
> > ago, but mainline keeps reimplementing Linux-VServer
> > code (which seems to be the only way to get parts of
> > it mainlined atm)
> >   
> 
> This is still the chicken and egg situation.  If you don't care about
> them then they have no reason to care about you.  
> 
> I see no reason that all of vserver needs to be merged, but I do think
> it should be a stated goal to be *trying* to merge stuff upstream
> (where it makes sense).  Building bridges with the small stuff is
> where it starts..
> 
> 
> > save processes (and in the future entire guests)
> > to disk (while they are running) and resume that
> > state at any time in the future, on a reasonably
> > similar hardware ...
> >   
> 
> Hmm, sounds great.  Personally don't have a need for that though.
> (sure others do though - just my needs are simple)
> 
> Personally would like to see more well documented tools for doing
> stuff like bouncing the vserver, snapping it with lvm, restarting,
> etc.  Syncing safely across between servers.  Backing up vservers
> using rsync/s3/etc without messing up links (current docs are a bit
> confusing).  Getting unification working smoothly (at least for me on
> gentoo it needs tweaking to the scripts and I just ran out of time
> trying to figure out what to change)
> 
> 
> > > > I also plan to do a web frontend to control basic
> > > > functionality and a minimalistic host distribution
> > > > to run Linux-VServer Guests on, but I have no idea 
> > > > when I will find time for that.
> > > >       
> 
> Seriously just sketch out the idea for this and then challenge someone
> on the Rails/Merb/Camping/Php list to write it.
> 
> I think it needs some serious thought first on where the webserver is
> going to live and how the communication will work if we assume
> separate machines?  ssh, daemon with net access?
> 
> Personally I don't want much in the host, and certainly not a
> webserver or anything too heavy.  Could probably allow Perl and a few
> POE modules, but would be reluctant even for the amount of junk that
> this pulls in...
> 
> Perhaps have a look at "God" and "monit" for some ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> > > Only get something out which is "stable" in the sense 
> > > that you call it that!
> > >     
> > 
> > well, usually Linux-VServer development or even
> > experimental releases are as least as stable as
> > the stable mainline kernel releases, but yeah,
> > we definitely want to get a feature complete and
> > well tested 'stable' release out
> >   
> 
> Yeah, but again at the risk of being too pointed.  I still think that
> you aren't realising that you are cutting off a good chunk of your
> potential "market" because you are mis selling the product.  There is
> an expectation of release cycles and things being called betas and
> some stability of the stuff which is a release, etc.  Those who are
> close to the problem realise that it's all smoke and mirrors and
> labelling game, but humans like consistency, so do what the other guys
> do and label the thing differently!
> 
> Seriously - change the website to say:
> 
> "It's stable - version 1 of vserver released.  It slices,dices and
> washes whiter than white"
> 
> Chuck and article on slashdot and watch half the world beat a path to
> your door.   
> 
> Market the product more! Vserver is a great project and deserves more
> exposure!
> 
> Good luck
> 
> Ed W
I believe Ed is giving some excellent guidance here.  We are very
impressed with the technology of the VServer project but it does not
project a very professional ethos, sometimes comes across as a tad bit
arrogant, and it's very hard to pick up the project from scratch.  All
of that can be a sign of overload on a small core of developers so I
quite understand.  On the other hand, I have found the developers
unbelievably supportive - I can't say enough good in that area.
However, appearance and ease of entry are important to attract new users
and contributors.  If it were not for the outstanding technology, I
certainly would have gone elsewhere and never known about the great
support.

We are planning to build a large part of our new business on VServer and
would be very happy to contribute as soon as we build our revenue
stream.  This is far too great a project to let die! Thanks for all
you've done, all you VServites!
-- 
John A. Sullivan III
Open Source Development Corporation
+1 207-985-7880
jsullivan@opensourcedevel.com

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